Cats
On this episode of "Leeza," Vickie Ives and her daughter Victoria and other apologists for her tried to justify her breeding of "twisty cats." The audience was not fooled.
(Check out the twisty cat video at the bottom of this entry.)
This was posted online for quite a while, but the link has expired. However, it was mirrored somewhere.
Leeza Show Transcipts
Aired January 26, 1999
Leeza [Gibbons]:
Many wished her dead, they've called her Hitler, says she's creating her own little Frankensteins. Let me tell you why. Her name is Vickie Speirs. [Vickie Speir, actually; now that her husband has left her, Vickie Ives. People kept calling her Spears. It annoyed her no end. That's why they did it. --MAH]
She lives in Texas and she has bred a litter of cats that are short a bone and so their front paws are short and they twist in a little bit so she calls them the Twisty Cats. Now, I got to tell you we debated about this show today whether to bring you the story or whether to show you one of the actual cats which we will do later on in the show today, one of them is here, 'cause we didn't want to present something that maybe seen as being cruel to animals but I think it's very important for you to decide for yourself and to hear the facts from the people who created this story.
How do you feel about it audience, just in general, the Twisty Cats?
Is it cute or is it cruel?
Audience:
CRUEL!!!
Leeza:
What's your point of view?
A woman from the audience:
My point of view is that these cats can not speak for themselves. How do you know that they're comfortable in the life that they're living? When she continues to breed these cats, the mutation is gonna worsen. I mean what is the long effect on these cats with this mutation?
Leeza:
What do you think? Is it okay with you?
A man from the audience:
I think they're fine. I see nothing wrong with it. For years, our generation has been told that different is not bad. And now, you're sitting here with me, telling me that just because these cats are different, that they're bad. They're no different from any other cat as far as they can't speak. My cat can't speak its word anyway and it has both its regular feet.
Leeza:
Let's get into it. Vicki Speirs is joining us.
Let's start with the basic definition so we make sure we know what we're talking about. Vicki, exactly what is a Twisty Cat?
Vickie Speir:
The twisty Cats were a mutation that occurred from a couple of polydactyls and we just created that name for them basically to describe the fact that they have slightly twisted forelegs. The actual name for it is radial agenesis, I believe. They're missing a bone in the foreleg and it causes it to curve in. That doesn't mean that there's no support there. There are 2 bones in that place and in the twisties, they have one bone that is enlarged. They have good support for their legs. There are no dangling forelegs.
Leeza:
So much to talk about. Vicki is not here. You're recovering from some surgery. You're feeling okay?
Vickie Speir:
That's right. We've got beautiful day here in Texas. I feel great.
Leeza:
Never mess with a Texan, we know that.
....
Vickie's here, her daughter Victoria is on our stage though, so is the veterinarian who delivered the Twisty Cats. We have a cat behaviorist and we also have the editor of the Cats Magazine. So we got the bases covered but let's just stick with why on earth, why would you want cats that are deformed?
Vickie Speir:
Well, actually I guess one person's deformity is another person's interesting mutation. When you see some exotic cats today later in the show there are quite valuable mutations that people have been breeding for a number of years. We just feel this is another interesting mutation. These cats, no cats are beasts or burden. They are indoor pets. So these cats like to bounce and play just like other cats but they do sit up and they have some interesting qualities that other cats don't and we enjoy that in Flipper and want to reproduce another one like her.
Leeza:
"They find it interesting, they enjoy it." What's your problem with it?
Isabel Pomphrey (cat behaviorist):
My problem with it is that she has basically bred the feline out of a cat. Cats were put in this planet to be hunters, to defend themselves with their claws, to wash their faces with their paws, to set mark and these cats can't do these. The problem being, if this cat is attacked by an animal, can he defend himself with those front paws? I don't think so. I don't think so.
Victoria Speir:
[Lynn now. A guy married her.--MAH]
Flipper is the outer cat in our house. We have several cats.
Leeza:
Flipper, by the way, is the cat we have with us today.
Victoria Speir:
She is the boss cat in our house. She defends herself against all of the cats, big or small or of what not and they're not intended to be outdoors. They are supposed to be an indoor cat.
Isabel Pomphrey:
I understand that Twisties are an indoor cat but what about an act of God that these cats are out there. They can not fend for themselves, they can not kill a bird, they can not climb a tree.
Victoria Speir:
You do not know that, ma'am, nor do we.
A woman from the audience:
It sounds that your mother is more twisted than the cats are.
Leeza:
You've heard it before Victoria. These people have come under a lot of criticism.
Victoria:
I'm sorry, I can't hear you, Leeza.
Leeza:
You would have come under a lot of criticisms and people are not just mildly scratching their heads and going "Oh, what's up with that?" They're saying "These are sick people running their own little freak show!" and how do you defend that?
Victoria:
We are not...
Every American has the right to do with their animals as they will as long as...
[Boos from audience]
Leeza:
Let her finish
Victoria:
As long as they are well taken care of, well fed and are not in physical pain through anything that you do.
Leeza:
Let's talk about that with you. You're the veterinarian. They delivered in your house, right?
Sonya McClendon, DVM (Veterinarian):
Right.
Leeza:
Are they physically okay?
Sonya McClendon:
They have appeared to be physically fine in all respects. I did deliver this set of kittens that Flipper had. The last litter. I was shocked to see the deformity in Eleanor.
Leeza:
Eleanor, Vicki, is the one that you have with you today?
Vickie Speir:
That's right. We're gonna talk about Eleanor just as soon as you guys are ready. She's here with me right now.
Leeza:
Can we take a shot of Eleanor?
....
Okay, here's Eleanor.
....
Now Eleanor really does look like she's uncomfortable, like she's in pain! She's like a kangaroo!
Sonya McClendon
She doesn't appear to be in any pain if you are in her presence. She hops around, jumps around, she plays. She lives a fairly happy life. I can not say nor can you say that she is or is not in pain.
Isabel:
That is true but the problem is that she will adapt. Cats are very adaptable to their ...
Sonya McClendon:
True.
Isabel:
So she's gonna adapt to indoors and living this sort of life.
Leeza:
Alright, this is Flipper. You can't tell until Flipper really stands erect, which she will do, that this cat is anything other than a normal cat. Victoria, can you position her so we can see the difference in the legs?
....
There's a bone missing from the front paws, is that right?
Victoria:
Yes ma'am.
Sonya McClendon:
This is the radial bone. She has a condition known as radial agenesis. If you've ever studied Latin, "genesis" is beginning and "a" is none --- there is no beginning of her radial. She does have an oma. The oma does articulate with the ...
Leeza:
All we know is that the legs look short. We wonder if this cat can jump. Vicki, we have read many things about you and your controversial story that these cats are bred to be more controllable, not to jump on counters.
Vickie Speir:
No, actually, I think this thing just came up later. We were discussing why do we breed them. No, we weren't breeding them for that purpose. We just want to reproduce Flipper.
Leeza:
Wanted to reproduce Flipper because... why?
Vickie Speirs:
We just love her so much. She's so entertaining. We love her personality and we do love the fact that she sits up. She greets me every morning at the breakfast table sitting up, on back at one of the breakfast chairs, waving her front foot at me, grabbing some of my attention.
Leeza:
Some of the things that have been said to Vicki and her family...
"Rot in hell";
"I hope no one has mercy on your soul";
"I sincerely hope that somebody removes your arms and laughs about how cute you are trying to get around.'
Some, Vickie, have gone as far as saying that they're gonna burn down your farm and shoot your animals?
Vickie Speir:
Yes. We have threats of all kinds against the animals and us and our property and of course you can't tell which of these people are saying cruel things on e-mail and who might actually be someone ... who might actually consider doing that. We feel much better with the media attention, at least they'll know we are in the public eye.
Leeza:
You struck a nerve. What do you think, Sir?
A man from the audience:
I think that people talk about.. that the cats have been promised earth, for their own natural protection. But then we as human beings feel the need to domesticate them, to declaw them, grow hypoallergenic cats so that we don't affect the humans who are allergic to cats, we declaw them so they can't tear up our furniture, if they get outside they can't climb trees but we declaw them, that is our job. We clip wings on birds so they don't fly around outside and get away. What happened here is an accident and then it became something that they did on purpose and they're breeding cats that are still healthy. We don't know the lifespan of these cats here. We don't know if there is a permanent defect here or not.
Christine Ford (Cats Magazine editor):
The thing here is they're inbred.
Isabel:
There'll also be behavioral problems that could come from that. Cats know that they're different. If there's a cat that is sickly in the litter, the mother will not feed it. So they know that they're different. Now these cats are obviously well cared for and loved in their home but if they go outside it's like painting a target on them.
Leeza:
If you love animals, you're gonna find any animal cute and you're gonna love it but to purposely give this animal a difference that you can't control.... you don't know if one paw will be this short and the other will be a little ... you don't know how the gene will manifest itself. So aren't you really taking a chance each time there's a litter?
Sonya McClendon:
Well, we're talking about a change in a cat that was bred and a change in cats that people own everyday and take to the veterinarian and get declawed selectively. A declawed animal cannot go out and climb a tree and kill a bird either, so what's the difference?
Leeza:
How do cats groom themselves? If they have little paws like these, psychologically, what does it do to a cat who can't clean and groom?
Isabel:
It's part of their makeup and declawed cats can climb a tree with their back paws because they use the front paws just to get the momentum up there which they [Twisty Cats] don't have the advantage of doing. Obviously, they're well cared for but declawed cats can't catch birds, they can't climb trees but the cat at least has a bigger advantage because if cats fight they sit back and they extend their paws and they swipe at you with the front paws. It's like a boxer. They don't have that much farther to reach.
Victoria:
You don't know that Flipper cannot climb a tree as you can see her front paws are wrapped around me as a normal cat would and her back feet are perfectly normal. She can run and jump and hop just like any other cat. She cannot jump quite as high but she has done, I measured 3 foot jump.
Leeza:
Can Eleanor jump?
Victoria:
Yes, Eleanor jumps on the beds, on the furniture.
Roger Valentine, DVM (A guest veterinarian sitting in the audience):
...be careful with that because they don't have the strength in their front legs and their strength in their back muscles make a big difference in how they can perform.
Leeza:
Do you think they're uncomfortable?
Roger Valentine:
I don't think they're in pain.
Leeza:
You don't?
Roger Valentine:
As having examined her earlier [in the show], I don't think she's in pain.
A woman from the audience:
I just wanted to know, I mean, no doubt the cats are loved, but however what is your purpose of continually breeding deformed cat? Is it for money, greed, publicity? It's got to be something and not just to breed a crippled cat for no reason. In my opinion, it's very cruel and inhumane.
Leeza:
What was the purpose, Vickie?
Vickie Speir:
Several purposes. As I said our initial purpose is to reproduce Flip.
These cats do not catch birds. They do not walk on cabinets. they wouldn't walk on the table when people eat. It's a cat that could remain in a fenced yard if someone doesn't want to put it inside although I really think they should be indoor cats. Basically, this is a cat that is very feline regardless of what Isabel said. They have a very playful and have an ordinary cat nature. But they have a restricted territory. They don't ask to go outside. They prefer to be indoors and they're quite happy there.
Leeza:
Are you making money off the cats, Vicki?
Vickie Speir:
Absolutely not. The only one that we have ever sold is Tammy's cat and we question whether or not we should call him a Twisty cause he does not sit up.
Leeza:
Tammy [Daane] has got the cat here. Hi Tammy!. This is Hot Stuff Pete. Now Hot Stuff Pete is polydactyl which you guys probably know, means he has an extra toe. Is Hot Stuff Pete a Twisty?
Tammy [Daane]:
He did have twisty when he was born. His feet were twisted in but they have straightened out now as you can tell and he does walk and jump like regular cats.
Leeza:
You bought him?
Tammy:
I bought him as a polydactyl mix cause he does have a short tail and not for being a twisty.
Leeza:
And how much did you have to pay for him, do you mind?
Tammy:
$250.
Leeza:
Do you want a twisty? Do you want this one to create more twisties?
Tammy:
To a certain degree. Between what he is and Flipper is. That bad, I wouldn't want it to be really twisted. I don't know what they're gonna turn out with until I find out once I ...
Leeza:
See, I guess that's what has everybody so upset. Because it's an unknown, because you can't say "Oh, we only want the cute ones like Flipper with the paws that will allow them to have an active life." "We don't want wildly deformed freak cats that are gonna be unable to defend themselves and have a low quality of life!". But how do you know?
Victoria:
If the genes are uncontrollable, they will not be bred.
Leeza:
But it's actually out there. The gene is out there!
Sonya McClendon:
Not in the general population of cats. These are the only cats in Texas that we know of that are actually breeding at this time. None of her cats are being bred at this point. They are on cats' contraceptives.
A man from the audience:
The only reason that people would breed for cats like this, even for looks, but certainly like this is pretty disgusting, they would do it for the money, prestige or power or whatever and I'm really ashamed that you as a veterinarian would even, to say it's okay and condone that and you'd even say declawing as if it was nothing. Declawing is basically taking the cat's first joint off and you talk about it like it's nothing! And you call yourself a vet? Jeez!
Sonya McClendon:
I don't condone. I have to respond to this, to say this. Vickie knows how I feel about these cats. I do not think that these cats should be bred. I do not think that these cats should be reproduced. However, she is my client. She has the right to do with her cats whatever she wishes. I cannot dictate her breeding practice. I must take care of the animals that are produced once they're here.
Same man from the audience:
But you have the right not to be here and endorse this kind of thing!
Leeza:
She's not endorsing it though.
Sonya McClendon:
I'm not endorsing breeding these cats.
Same man from the audience:
There are people out there that... There are 18 to 20 million animals a year being killed in pounds because they're not being adopted. You [pointing to Tammy] spent 250 dollars on this cat. You could have gone on a pound and cost you nothing to adopt an animal and take him home and save his life.
Leeza:
Vickie Speirs has started calling them Twisty Cats and Vicki, you have posted a webpage which sort of introduce these cats to a lot of people. Do you have any idea how much controversy you were creating at the time?
Vickie Speir:
None at all. The cats are on the webpage. What people seem to dig to most are Flipper's litter which are homosagus crosses. Until we bred Flipper to Paddlewheel, we didn't realize that we would get the tighter twisty gene or the shorter front legs. Now that we know that, of course we'll be producing the heterosagus type of cats. But we were amazed on how well, with the more twisted front feet and Eleanor actually did. We thought it was wonderful that they adapted so well and have such wonderful quality of life and we were basically showing off how cute the cats did, how well they adapted to their home situation. We never deemed that anybody will consider it cruelty.
Leeza:
Are you afraid that someone really might do harm to you and your family?
Vickie Speirs:
I am less afraid with the media attention. Ahh.. the gentleman said before that probably we're doing it for money or prestige. Believe me we haven't gotten either out of this. We did exactly as I said. We're trying to reproduce Flipper and when we found that they were so unique and other people are interested in them, then we thought we would like to see if we could reproduce Flip and after two breedings that we weren't able to, we crossed the two cats that showed the genes lightly and produce Flipper's litter. Out of those, all of those kittens are neutered except for Sarge and Lucy. The kittens that you see with tight twists and like Eleanor here on my lap, hmm... These cats are already neutered. We are not trying to reproduce a cat like this. We want a cat that looks like Flipper. We're not trying to produce a tighter twist.
Leeza:
You don't have a problem with this at all, do you Sir?
A man from the audience:
Well, I don't have a problem with the issue of breeding for the purpose of getting money. All breeders breed for the purpose of selling whatever it is that they breed. And as far as breeding for specific characteristic, again, many breeders of dogs and cats, breed for the purpose of either getting a longer nose or bigger ears or shorter tails or..
Isabel:
This is changing the essence of the animal. I am the head of the Dalton International Feral Rescue. Three to six million animals are put down every year and you're breeding something that changes the essence of the animal. There's an AOL Poll, America Online Poll on the internet right now because of the webpage. And there are thousands of people --- they're taking the poll on how many people agree with this and how many people do not agree with this.
Same man from the audience:
Well as far as how many animals get put down, that doesn't have much with the issue of breeding. Because if you wanna say that no animal should be put down then no breeding should go on and the only animals that anybody should ever get into their homes would be an animal coming from the pound.
Leeza:
Let's look at some of the characteristics that are bred for with these three people up on the stage. Are you three all breeders?
Breeders:
Yes.
Leeza:
Thank you all very much for being here, by the way, we do appreciate it.
....
Let's start with the hairless cat.
Breeder:
This is Sphynx and we breed sphynx. This is a hairless cat that has been in existence since 1966.
Leeza:
And the purpose of that cat is what, sir?
Julia Dent (Sphynx breeder):
People with allergies like myself... Cats with hair, I can not really hold them for more than about ten minutes or so without eyes swelling up and itchy throat ..
Leeza:
How do you feel about the twisties?
Julia Dent:
I am not agreeing with them.
Leeza:
You find a difference between what you breed for and what they're doing?
Julia Dent:
Yes.
Leeza:
What about you, sir?
Glenn Fankhauser (breeder of Munchkin, Manx and Scottish Folds):
My problem is the variability in the twisties. There is not a uniform degree of the twisted paws so I think that's part of the problem. I have seen twisties that are essentially non-ambulatory and I think that's wrong.
Sonya McClendon:
I must say that all breedings must take place overtime so that you can weed out the variables.
Leeza:
Tell us what this cat is.
Glenn Fankhauser:
This is Scottish Fold and it's a dominant mutation that causes the ear just to be folded down a little bit.
Leeza:
And does this harm the cat at all?
Glenn Fankhauser:
I would assume that it would have a little bit different hearing capability but other than that, no.
Leeza:
And this cat is what?
Glenn Fankhauser:
This is a Munchkin cat and it's a short legged cat. Other than that, it's just a... It's essentially a Dachshund cat.
Leeza:
But the legs are uniform, front and back, not like the twisties.
Glenn Fankhauser:
Yeah, the back legs they don't look as short but they're shortened, too.
Leeza:
Now, audience, is this different from the twisties?
Audience:
YEAH!!!
Leeza:
Can somebody stand up to the mic and tell me why is this different from the twisties?
A woman from the audience:
Like she said, you have to go through a breeding process, wean out what you don't want. You're playing God. You're saying "I want a cat without hair so I'm gonna breed it without hair." You know, this twisty thing is disgusting!
Leeza:
Time out with the Twisty Cats. Has anybody changed their minds about the twisties?
Audience:
NO!!!
Leeza:
So let's move on from the twisties. You think how you think about it.
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